I can definitely see that as well. The masquerade aspect is certainly clear and might be approached from a variety of angles. I am not a literary scholar by any means, but I would suggest that the adult mockery of children and youth is present in Carroll as a staple of adult market fiction and entertainment in general. It continues apace today, as there are a myriad of examples of scripting for TV wherein children are portrayed as burdensome, as feckless, as surrogate sexual objects, and as victims only at the hands of strangers, which is absolutely counter to all the facts of child abuse. From crime shows, to family shows, to legal melodramas, young people are the butt of adults' misplaced sardonicus. For me, Carroll is an early example of same, though I do think you are correct that there are a number of odd things going on in those two works, including trippy stuff!
There is a version of Carroll's book I purchased for my brother-in-law years ago - The Annotated Alice - that dissects and discusses the various puzzles and commentary found throughout the book.
It is interesting that you mention this because I often use either lectures or other recordings to kick me off into sleep. Recently, I've listened to the following version of Alice in Wonderland for this purpose.
I've listened to about three minutes of that version of Alice and I'm already nodding off. Wow. That's a drug.
I'll check out The Annotated Alice - it sounds interesting, and I've not come across it. My daughter is Alice - named supposedly after a great-grandmother, but we all know it's this Alice - and enjoys anything connected to her name. I'll pass it on to her, too!
Are you familiar with Jeff Noon? Author of Vurt? He also wrote a 'version' of Alice called 'Automated Alice' which is worth a read.
I am cautious about Carroll given the allusions to pedophilia and the Victorian penchant for having surrogate sex with children via physical 'discipline'. Not a children's book by any means, more of a voyeuristic mockery that, in its less literary version, is utilized by groomers of all stripes. The cat's off the cuff - or scruff? - remark about insanity is typical of the adult who rationalizes such abuse as the way of the world. Alice's own ongoing and unremitting naivety allows the adult reader to imagine that their own excesses do not seriously effect the character of the child who, in her ignorance, plods along from absurdity to absurdity, just as many do in real life.
Yes, Carroll isn't without his controversies, but I don't think the novel is a paedophilic text unless it's read that way. It could also be read as Marxist, Freudian, post-Structuralist - perhaps even as a deconstructionist critique on the various socio-economic issues of the time. Victorian literature is a beast in itself. Recently, I've been teaching aspects of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde through the lens of queer theory. It certainly works and matches up with a lot of tropes, but was that the intent? Was that a latent concern of Stephenson? I'm not sure - and not that it matters (the text is separate from the writer, once it's released), but at the end of the day the way one reads anything is defined as much by the reader as by the text itself. For me, Carroll's tale is an adult psychedelic puzzle (check out Antonio Melechi's 'Pyschedelia Britannica' if you're interested - my favourite pick up from Blackwells in 1997) masquerading as a children's book.
Mad: many years ago, at speakers corner, London. Someone in the audience shouted to the speaker: You're mad!
Speaker: we're all mad. Hands up anyone here who thinks they're sane. [Pause]. Nobody? There you are. Nobody here is sane, and if you think you are then you're madder than the rest of us put together!
I can definitely see that as well. The masquerade aspect is certainly clear and might be approached from a variety of angles. I am not a literary scholar by any means, but I would suggest that the adult mockery of children and youth is present in Carroll as a staple of adult market fiction and entertainment in general. It continues apace today, as there are a myriad of examples of scripting for TV wherein children are portrayed as burdensome, as feckless, as surrogate sexual objects, and as victims only at the hands of strangers, which is absolutely counter to all the facts of child abuse. From crime shows, to family shows, to legal melodramas, young people are the butt of adults' misplaced sardonicus. For me, Carroll is an early example of same, though I do think you are correct that there are a number of odd things going on in those two works, including trippy stuff!
There is a version of Carroll's book I purchased for my brother-in-law years ago - The Annotated Alice - that dissects and discusses the various puzzles and commentary found throughout the book.
It is interesting that you mention this because I often use either lectures or other recordings to kick me off into sleep. Recently, I've listened to the following version of Alice in Wonderland for this purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27SwZZ8jiBc
Other favorites are the many Sherlock Holmes stories and various histories or biographies.
I've listened to about three minutes of that version of Alice and I'm already nodding off. Wow. That's a drug.
I'll check out The Annotated Alice - it sounds interesting, and I've not come across it. My daughter is Alice - named supposedly after a great-grandmother, but we all know it's this Alice - and enjoys anything connected to her name. I'll pass it on to her, too!
Are you familiar with Jeff Noon? Author of Vurt? He also wrote a 'version' of Alice called 'Automated Alice' which is worth a read.
I've not but I'll look it up.
I am cautious about Carroll given the allusions to pedophilia and the Victorian penchant for having surrogate sex with children via physical 'discipline'. Not a children's book by any means, more of a voyeuristic mockery that, in its less literary version, is utilized by groomers of all stripes. The cat's off the cuff - or scruff? - remark about insanity is typical of the adult who rationalizes such abuse as the way of the world. Alice's own ongoing and unremitting naivety allows the adult reader to imagine that their own excesses do not seriously effect the character of the child who, in her ignorance, plods along from absurdity to absurdity, just as many do in real life.
Not quite 'down the bunny hole', but close.
Yes, Carroll isn't without his controversies, but I don't think the novel is a paedophilic text unless it's read that way. It could also be read as Marxist, Freudian, post-Structuralist - perhaps even as a deconstructionist critique on the various socio-economic issues of the time. Victorian literature is a beast in itself. Recently, I've been teaching aspects of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde through the lens of queer theory. It certainly works and matches up with a lot of tropes, but was that the intent? Was that a latent concern of Stephenson? I'm not sure - and not that it matters (the text is separate from the writer, once it's released), but at the end of the day the way one reads anything is defined as much by the reader as by the text itself. For me, Carroll's tale is an adult psychedelic puzzle (check out Antonio Melechi's 'Pyschedelia Britannica' if you're interested - my favourite pick up from Blackwells in 1997) masquerading as a children's book.
The puzzles in Alice are looked at in Once Upon A Prime, which I reviewed: https://open.substack.com/pub/terryfreedman/p/start-the-week-39?r=18suih&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Mad: many years ago, at speakers corner, London. Someone in the audience shouted to the speaker: You're mad!
Speaker: we're all mad. Hands up anyone here who thinks they're sane. [Pause]. Nobody? There you are. Nobody here is sane, and if you think you are then you're madder than the rest of us put together!
Once Upon A Prime has just arrived - I am really looking forward to that book!
Brilliant. Do share your thoughts on it!
Thanks for the mention!
Have lined up your playlist to listen later. It’s going to send me down some more rabbit holes - always a good thing.